Curse

LaserLight · May 21, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Right...let's encourage overcompetitiveness and the same stale-arse tactics that make Hero's Ascent unplayable to the masses. Reward only winners, and only winners will play. And when only winners play, you get a miniscule handful of overly-competitive people dominating a feature supposedly for everyone.

Keep Faction rewards for trying. Ragequitting will erupt tenfold and the thing will basically fall apart if you don't.

Ira Blinks · May 21, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

I ALREADY quit when I see afks after timer ran out. Team is ALREADY very likely to lose if there are leechers involved. Everything you saying is old news. Otherwise how what you describe different from RA or HA?

Also what is the problem with quitting? It's not like you deny opposing team victory they deserved. It's not like you gain something by not staying to the end. If you don't want to win, nobody can make you, but it doesn't mean you should still get a reward.

LamerFlamer · May 21, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Hey ira, saw you playing in aspenwood today. Anyway, it is a nice idea and all, but something tells me it would piss off a ton of players, especially the legit ones. That's just my two cents, I am not gonna be rude like I see alot of other people, I am just going to give my two cents, and say not signed.

/Not Signed.

Stabber · May 21, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Right...let's encourage overcompetitiveness and the same stale-arse tactics that make Hero's Ascent unplayable to the masses. Reward only winners, and only winners will play. And when only winners play, you get a miniscule handful of overly-competitive people dominating a feature supposedly for everyone.

Why are you so threatened by competitiveness? Last I checked, GW was a CORPG. Guess what the C stands for.

Savio · May 21, 2006, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Faction:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouseover on Kurzick faction

You gain faction with the Kurzicks by aiding them in their war against the Luxons.

It doesn't say winning for the Kurzicks, it says aiding. Participating in a competitive mission (which is PvE, not PvP) is aiding and thus earns you faction, regardless of whether you win or lose. It's the same with alliance battles.

The "no reward for the losing side" doesn't cut it, as AFK/bot players have existed long before Factions was released, in that cesspool we all know as Random Arenas. Real players are hurt because they're only on so many hours a day and so they end their day with less faction in their pocket. For an AFKer/bot though, they'll be on 24/7 and can wait for as long as they need to to get faction. To them, time isn't a concern because there will always eventually be winners and they will get faction regardless. Removing the faction from losses only affects global faction earning rates, it does nothing to eliminate the problem of AFKers and bots at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

I still don't see the problem. Are you all saying that people who like to ragequit for silly reasons deserve faction?

Why?

People who stick around under the current system and try are given faction, as opposed to people who leave early who don't get anything. Under Ira Blink's proposal, people who stick around and people who ragequit earn the same thing - nothing. In fact, if you lost faction for losses people would be even more eager to quit early (which has no fair solution). So why bother trying and wasting time when you can just quit and enter until you get a godly team, or do the far more boring but more rewarding challenge missions and quests?

@Sanji: alliance battles are 12v12. Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry are "competitive missions" as Anet puts it.

Pillz_veritas · May 21, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I can actualy see this.... If they make it so that every time you win you get 2,500 Faction.... Or atleas Triple what it currently is at Otherwise no.

bilateralrope · May 21, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

I still don't see the problem. Are you all saying that people who like to ragequit for silly reasons deserve faction?

Why?

Because there are times when you look like your going to lose, but manage to pull through. If you dont award faction, and your team looks likely to lose, people drop and you are gaurenteed to lose. If you do award faction, the rage quitter stays and helps you to at least gain more factin that you could if he was gone.

Sure, the quitter doesn't really deserve to win. But the other people on his team dont deserve to lose out simply because of 1 person.

Ira Blinks · May 21, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

*sigh*
I'll explain once again for bilateralrope and Savio. The problem you describing ALREADY exists. Regardless of wherever someone have quit or afk'd whole thing you ALREADY very likely to lose. The thing I dont understand is why one leecher is ok, while one quitter is autolose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

In fact, if you lost faction for losses people would be even more eager to quit early (which has no fair solution).

wth are you talkin about? Ofcourse it has fair solution. Game can simply calculate faction for every player after game ended and not at the point they quit. That is already given that penalty is non-static, which it doesnt have to be. Say if your team won - you'd get 1000 faction. If your team lost - you lose 300. If you have quit before game eneded - you still lose 300 regardless. Easy!
I honestly don't understand your attitude towards this issue. It's like you intentionally trying to overcomplicate everything I say.

bilateralrope · May 21, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Yes, the ragequitters already exist. But if they didn't get faction if they stayed, there would be even more ragequitters.

Also, say you lose faction for each loss. What happens when you reach 0 faction ?

Savio · May 21, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Regardless of wherever someone have quit or afk'd whole thing you ALREADY very likely to lose. The thing I dont understand is why one leecher is ok, while one quitter is autolose?

Because I can and have won with people leaving and AFK. Your claim is utter nonsense.

Quote:

If you have quit before game eneded - you still lose 300 regardless. Easy!

I've disconnected several times during Fort Aspenwood. Do I or anyone else who's had lag issues deserve to lose faction because of circumstances beyond our control? Notice how there never has been a penalty for leavers so far? It's an issue Anet either cannot change or deliberately does not change.

What I don't get is what you are trying to propose. You say you want to cut down on bots and AFKers, but all you've proposed is to make it more cuthroat and competitive. Will it cut down on people who AFK? Not a bit, as the bots keep joining games all day and could care less if there's the occasional loss or ten. Will it drive off a lot of people who enjoy doing this mission? You can bet it'll become a ghost town the second that's implemented. "Let's get rid of the bots by driving away their teammates who help them to get free faction!"

Sai of Winter · May 21, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

Why are you so threatened by competitiveness? Last I checked, GW was a CORPG. Guess what the C stands for.

The C in CORPG doesn't mean competitive, it means Cooperative or Co-op for short with the O.

samifly · May 21, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Its actually competative/cooperative. its both.

vinegrower · May 21, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai of Winterland

The C in CORPG doesn't mean competitive, it means Cooperative or Co-op for short with the O.

check page 112 of you Guild Wars: Factions Manuscripts.

Ira Blinks · May 21, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Because I can and have won with people leaving and AFK. Your claim is utter nonsense.

err what? o...k I might be missing something here, but isn't team with one afk = 7 people and team with one quitter = still 7 people? Wth are you talking about anyway?

Quote:

I've disconnected several times during Fort Aspenwood. Do I or anyone else who's had lag issues deserve to lose faction because of circumstances beyond our control?

yes, that is the basic nature of pvp in any game out there. You can not play the game if you disconnected, thus you lose. If you getting disconnected too often to make serious impact on you faction, then you should just quit playing and pissing off your possible teammates.

Quote:

Notice how there never has been a penalty for leavers so far? It's an issue Anet either cannot change or deliberately does not change.

well maybe thats exactly what the problem is? People are encouraged to be losers by not having penalties for loss.
You think it is only pvp problem? It is the same in pve. You can't imagine how many people I saw who have been to various high level areas maybe hundreds of times and still haven't learn basic things like aggro control, energy management etc. Why? Because when they fail, they just blame the noob team and start over instead of learning something.

Quote:

What I don't get is what you are trying to propose. You say you want to cut down on bots and AFKers, but all you've proposed is to make it more cuthroat and competitive. Will it cut down on people who AFK? Not a bit, as the bots keep joining games all day and could care less if there's the occasional loss or ten. Will it drive off a lot of people who enjoy doing this mission? You can bet it'll become a ghost town the second that's implemented. "Let's get rid of the bots by driving away their teammates who help them to get free faction!"

What I don't get is how it should drive anyone off? I mean I hope you don't think I win all the time or never quit myself when I see afkers, yet I don't have any problems with what I'm suggesting.

Loralai · May 21, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

/unsigned

This is PvP play that I, as a usually exclusive PvE'r, truly enjoy. Why this desire to make something so utterly "win" or "lose"? Either way, everyone is playing for the same amount of time.

If the leechers are the problem, then ask for a new solution, such as auto-boot after so much time of not using a skill, or something along those lines. Penalizing other people who participate, because of 1 or 2, is one good and solid way to make a whole lot of PvE'ers stop giving PvP a chance.

Ira Blinks · May 21, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loralai

This is PvP play that I, as a usually exclusive PvE'r, truly enjoy. Why this desire to make something so utterly "win" or "lose"? Either way, everyone is playing for the same amount of time.

this is exactly a pve mindset I'm talking about: "I spend this much time on game, so the game is obligated to give me this much back". I'm sorry, you are dead wrong. This might work when you farm ettins, but in Aspenwood you dont fight the game, you fight real people on the other side, and they do not owe you anything.

Quote:

If the leechers are the problem, then ask for a new solution, such as auto-boot after so much time of not using a skill, or something along those lines. Penalizing other people who participate, because of 1 or 2, is one good and solid way to make a whole lot of PvE'ers stop giving PvP a chance.

I'm pretty sure I already explained why this doen't work. Please bother to read something beside first post next time. And as the time goes by this problem will only be getting worse. The only real solution is to make losing unprofitable.

M3lk0r · May 21, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

If you want to play PvP, play GvG or even Arenas/HA. Leave this alone.

/un-signed

Ira Blinks · May 21, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

fine then, it only means that I will continue leaving the game if I see afks at start.

WasAGuest · May 22, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

If we want the afker problem to go away or at least lessen, the we need Anet to understand, faction farming is not fun.
The dull, game play of Factions is what is causing this to happen. Anet wants the players to play these missions cause, quite frankly, that's all there is after the game is over... well, those or the repeatable quests which are terribly boring after doing them about five times.
If Anet were to add better quests with better rewards on the PvE side then the afkers would go down. However, that would defeat Anet's desire to have more people playing these missions.
So, the only way to win for the players is to lessen the amount of faction needed for armor/town control. As we all know, players will take the road of least resistance while trying to get what they desire. And Anet can't really adjust the town control unless it is allowed shared ownership... we are in the same faction (Luxon vs Kurzick).
Anet's odd nerf* on the 19th worsened the afkers a great deal because now finding a group is a must for gaining faction. Some people will say "Lfg" only so many times before they get bored and grab henchies. Henchies don't cut it for faction farming (time over skill these days is name of the game, so faster is better). No groups, players head to the missions and since they don't like PvP or feel they can't win, they afk it.

People here are correct in saying by removing the points for the losing side will only further discourage other from even trying it (time over skill these days).

*The nerf was odd as it came before real fixes were put in place. The nerf slowed the faction gain for everyone, not just the big alliances. Therefore, the small alliances still have the same chance at out farming the larger ones. The only thing the nerf accoplished is to slow down the rate at which people gained their faction based armor... which is odd because Chapter 3 is only 5 months away and the armor we are getting now will likely be replaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

fine then, it only means that I will continue leaving the game if I see afks at start.

Unfortunatly, due to the broken system at play here, those people afking wont care. They are there to lose and get fast faction points. Again the time over skill at play shows up.
It is in my opinion that once Anet stops trying to push PvP on PvEers or stops rewarding PvEers for playing in PvP games, those that enjoy PvP games will have a less corrupted gaming experience.
There will be fewer people playing those, but at least it will be those that are wanting to play it and not farm it.
It sounds like you are playing the PvP game to win (which I would assume is the way it is meant to be played), but those afkers are there with a different goal in mind.

robrobrob · May 22, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

WasAGuest, you call everything a nerf. When you do that, you truly take away from the word it's true meaning. Simply tweaking and adjusting is not nerfing. Balancing is not nerfing. Please, please, learn to distinguish between them. (Please do not claim you already do. All you call things are 'nerfs.')